Paging Land Rover Oppos (AMGTech, 4Muddy, and thebloody)

"R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet" (r-saldana) 01/12/2016 at 14:49 • Filed to: Land Rover, Emissions

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Need some advice regarding the SAI system on my Disco II (2003). Ole Jazzie is throwing P1412 and P1415 showing fault on the SAI both banks. I inspect and investigate and see that the high-temp hoses connected to the (I have no fucking clue what these things are called) are cracked and definitely need replacement. Hopefully my super large images don’t break the kinja.......

This:

Goes into one of these on each side of the motor:

In order to remove these hoses so I can get replacement parts I need to pull off the entire SAI system. (Don’t worry Jazzie is not being driven right now - no tags because no pass inspection)

Rigid SAI/EGR tubing that the rubber hoses were clamped onto, that then go into the weird silver things on each side.

This leads me to the next couple of bits: I removed the rigid recirculation tubing and then began removing the actual SAI pump. I had been told on the forums that when the SAI pum pis going out is will sound like a jet engine on cold start. I have not yet experienced this issue, but have heard of the sometimes necessary rebuild of the SAI pump. Well I opened the end piece to see what was what. In the below pictures you should see the inside. I have no idea what this is actually supposed to look like as I have never removed or seen one of these opened before.

The empty hole where the SAI pump/solenoid/filter/thing????? goes:

Annoyingly, this system (from my limited research) only exists to make it California emissions legal. I live in TN and wish it could be as easy as removing it and going to the inspection station, but I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that this cannot be done for reasons. But I cannot deny my secret desire to crank her up and run her down the street with no intake or SAI system on. Also, so much more space in the engine bay with it gone, for activities.

Party-vi > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 14:52

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EGR valve if I’m not mistaken.

RallyWrench > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 15:13

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Problem. This is the port that feeds vacuum to open the valve and allow SAI air into the exhaust. It’s plugged with carbon. See if you can clean it out and replace the vacuum hoses. In Germancarland we call those combi valves, and they can be used for either EGR or SAI. They and your pump look exactly like the same Pierburg parts that damn near everyone uses. If these valves stick open, they allow condensation to form in the air injection hoses, which will then accumulate in the pump, destroying it. If you have a hand vacuum pump you can test the valves easily, and the pump can be run on any 12V source if you want to bench test it.

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 15:18

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EGR can be straight removed. They’re basically useless anyway apart from emissions requirements, there’s kits on eBay which include blanking plate, bolts, gasket, and new tubing, and you just need to plug the vacuum line (I did this with a good sized screw and some heat resistant silicone). Removal of the SAI can be done too, but you have to change the ECU to one from a Disco without the SAI system. Don’t know if they came without them Stateside(?). You may be able to find someone who makes a new box for it, as I’d imagine it’s a common want for off-road use, but it’s probably expensive. If you don’t replace it it’ll just throw codes. Are you wanting to do both? Or just one? Having never seen them together on a motor, I don’t know how they relate to each other.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 15:21

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What the SAI pump does is pump air into the exhaust streem so unburned fuel can be burned.

You’d have to reprogram the ECU if you wanted to remove it otherwise you’d not pass inspection. I don’t think I’ve come across guys who have pulled it from the truck so can’t tell you if pulling it will have any unintended consequences.

You can pick up a referb one for about $140 so it’s not really worth rebuilding (it requires specialized tools so you’d waste a lot of time fabricating one off tools which IMHO not worth the effort).

Here is a thread on rebuilding it, most SAI pumps on engines are all very similar.

http://landroverforums.com/forum/discover…

EL_ULY > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 15:24

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http://houston.craigslist.org/zip/5397800637…

Also, that vacuum opening is hella clogged. I think you can clean those.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > EL_ULY 01/12/2016 at 16:08

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Upper radiator hose for what mang?

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > RallyWrench 01/12/2016 at 16:09

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What are the limits of cleaning these, I am supposing that I can;t just dump them into a bucket of parts cleaner....

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/12/2016 at 16:09

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So you think the SAI pump needs to be replaced?

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 01/12/2016 at 16:10

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Honestly I am just wanting the ole girl back on the road without any codes, so looks like replacing a bunch of things is in order?

RallyWrench > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:12

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Yeah, don’t do that because the have a diaphragm inside. Brake cleaner helps soften the carbon, and you can use a pick to scrape it out, then compressed air.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > RallyWrench 01/12/2016 at 16:13

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So just like cleaning the gas recirc on a 240G? (squad automatic weapon chambered in 7.62 x 51)

EL_ULY > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:13

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I saw it on CL for free. It goes to a Discovery II. Just thought i’d share :]

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > EL_ULY 01/12/2016 at 16:15

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I appreciate it. I did that last summer. Good eye though.

RallyWrench > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:20

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I know nothing about that, but it sounds like it!

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:21

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In that case combine what Thebloody, TFritch and that weird Cookie Monster guy said.

Poke those carbon deposits out of the EGR vacuum port, and knock the bits out of the silicone hose port on the other side. If you have compressed air to shoot through then all the better. Unless the inside of the EGR is absolutely caked with carbon deposits then I wouldn’t worry about cleaning it fully if it’s to get her back on the road. If you do have to clean it you can buy specific spray on/in EGR cleaner, over here it’s made by a company called Wynns.

Regarding the SAI, I wouldn’t replace it until you’ve put the EGR back on and checked the fault codes again. They may clear, they may not. I’m unsure as to whether the EGR is regarded as part of the EGR system in the fault codes. If they don’t buy clear, get some refurbs like Thebloody suggested.

Either way for step one you need a proddy tool, EGR gaskets, new silicones hoses, and some shiny new hose clamps.

His Stigness > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:29

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No car “throws” a code! The computer may set a code for a particular fault, but never does it “throw” a code. Whenever you say throw you immediately tell people you have no idea what you’re talking about and people who do will generally make fun of you.

Here is an acceptable alternative to tell your local shop when you encounter a problem:

“My check engine light recently came on and I have a scan tool that reads generic codes. When scanning it I found code X stored in the computer. Can you please diagnose it as I do not know the problem, as the forums are the end all be all of automotive knowledge. Thank you for your help, and I will be glad to pay your for your time and vast knowledge, and not try and get a discount because I wasted my time scanning my own car.”

uofime-2 > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:29

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ha, time to get out your gun cleaning kit!

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:36

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I mean, if it isn’t making a noise I wouldn’t worry about it. I’ve had mine go on me but it was 2 days after I bought the Landy so the place I got it from was required to fix it (so it passed inspection). It sounded like a bloody vacuum cleaner when it went. If you don’t hear it, it should be fine and you only worry about it when it dies. If it does decide to give up the ghost it isn’t that expensive to replace (relatively speaking).

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/12/2016 at 16:41

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Having seen the inside of it should I clean it? And what is the best process for cleaning it?

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > His Stigness 01/12/2016 at 16:43

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.......not sure why vitriol was a necessary ingredient in this thread.......

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:47

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It is possible to disable the SAI, but not in yours unfortunately. You would need the ECU from a ‘99 D2 that already came without it, which isn’t compatible with a D2B.

If you clean the combi valves, make sure they hold vacuum, otherwise they won’t work. The pump might be okay, just make sure it actually runs (cold start, for up to two minutes I think).

Rebuilding the pump is not even remotely with the headache. It’s rarely successful, unless you can find replacement internals (good luck). And it’s really easy to break things taking it all the way apart. Don’t bother.

I think others have covered everything else.

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 16:47

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I’d say a parts cleaning brush or dry paper towel, just try get some of the carbon deposits off. Doesn’t have to be spotless, I’d stay away from getting it wet with any cleaner.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 01/12/2016 at 16:52

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No EGR on a V8 disco. Those are air injection combi valves, sometimes referred to as vacuum valves.

We did get non-SAI D2's here, but only for part of ‘99 MY. And unfortunately those ECU’s aren’t compatible with a D2B. I tried going down that road years ago, something is different with the pins and wiring, in a way I wasn’t able to modify it to work. Can’t remember specifics though.

D2A’s are easy to convert though! Just get some bolts to plug the ports in the heads.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/12/2016 at 16:59

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If (SAI) it never makes a peep does that mean it is working properly?

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/12/2016 at 17:01

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Roger that. I’m hoping that none of the lines have any punctures except the hose at the top. Those should just be fairly standard high-temp rubber hoses, right?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 17:03

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Or not working at all. Start the engine cold. Put your hand on the pump. It will be fairly obvious if it’s working, and you should be able to hear it with the hood open, though when new they’re not terribly loud. They don’t come on every time though, and there may be a delay of 15-30 seconds after start.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/12/2016 at 17:05

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Hmm, okay then I need to put it all back together this weekend with replacement hoses for the EGR valves. The aluminum pipes that go between the 2 EGR’s can be cleaned with brake cleaner/wd40/CLP/soap and water?

Any advice on vacuum testing without shop access?

TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 17:06

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Pretty much.

R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet > TheBloody, Oppositelock lives on in our shitposts. 01/12/2016 at 17:07

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...pretty much to a European car owner.....lol

4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 01/12/2016 at 17:08

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Rover V8's are not my strong point! Damn sure looks like an EGR valve though, my bad.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > R Saldana [|Oo|======|oO|] - BTC/ETH/LTC Prophet 01/12/2016 at 19:17

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Clean the pipes with whatever works, ad long as they’re dry when you install them.

As for vacuum testing...

http://m.harborfreight.com/brake-bleeder-…

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > 4muddyfeet - bare knuckle with an EZ30 01/12/2016 at 19:18

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It’s cool! I think some cars use the exact same part for EGR.